Ok, is that cleared? That means no Walter White, the chemistry teacher who became a drug lord after “breaking bathrooms.” Neither is Saul Goodman, White’s slick lawyer. “And that will scare some people away,” Gilligan admits. “There will be plenty of people who turn on Pluribus out of curiosity. ‘ Oh, that’s that Breaking Bad guy.’ And they might watch 20 minutes of it and say, ‘Oh, no one gets killed. No one gets their throat cut with a cardboard cutter. This is not for me. I hate this!’ So let it be like that. It will make me sad, but it just means that the series wasn’t for them.”
This, of course, is the risk a creative person takes. When the spin-off series Better Call Saul ended in 2022, Sony executives understandably wanted more. “They said, ‘What do you think is coming next in the Breaking Bad universe?'” Gilligan had already delivered the film “El Camino” from 2019, which unfolded immediately after the finale of Breaking Bad. “I said, ‘Maybe we should take a break from that for a while. Maybe it’s time to move on… I wanted to see if I had any other stories in me that people would like. And it was scary. It’s scary. It remains scary.”
Here you see the trailer!
“I’m interested in a world where everyone gets along and loves each other” – Vince Gilligan.
The master of brutal TV dramas explains how his new series with Rhea Seehorn is not at all like “Better Call Saul”.
He is the creator of two of the most influential and critically acclaimed television dramas of the 21st century. But when NME talks to showrunner Vince Gilligan over Zoom, he has a warning about his new show. “Pluribus is not Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul,” he says with his colorful Virginian accent. “Although – and I know it’s confusing – it’s filmed in Albuquerque. Although it stars a very important actress from the Breaking Bad universe, Rhea Seehorn. It doesn’t resemble any of those series in any way.”
Okay, is that cleared up? That means no Walter White, the chemistry teacher who became a drug lord after “breaking bathrooms.” Neither is Saul Goodman, White’s slick lawyer. “And that will scare some people away,” Gilligan admits. “There will be plenty of people who turn on Pluribus out of curiosity. ‘ Oh, that’s that Breaking Bad guy.’ And they might watch 20 minutes of it and say, ‘Oh, no one gets killed. No one gets their throat cut with a cardboard cutter. This is not for me. I hate this!’ So let it be like that. It will make me sad, but it just means that the series wasn’t for them.”
This, of course, is the risk a creative person takes. When the spin-off series Better Call Saul ended in 2022, Sony executives understandably wanted more. “They said, ‘What do you think is coming next in the Breaking Bad universe?'” Gilligan had already delivered the film “El Camino” from 2019, which unfolded immediately after the finale of Breaking Bad. “I said, ‘Maybe we should take a break from that for a while. Maybe it’s time to move on… I wanted to see if I had any other stories in me that people would like. And it was scary. It’s scary. It remains scary.”
“I’m interested in a world where everyone gets along and loves each other” – Vince Gilligan.
Still, the friendly 58-year-old has earned the freedom to take a real gamble with “Pluribus”, a series with all the signs of becoming a cult hit. Apple TV has already ordered a second season. Seehorn, who was so wonderful as Goodman’s law partner Kim Wexler in Better Call Saul, stars as Carol Sturka, a successful author who is on a book tour when the world takes a very strange turn. A virus breaks out and transforms the population into happy drones who all worship Carol, while a handful of others who haven’t been infected watch with bewildered jealousy.
It’s certainly a slow-burner – just like Breaking Bad was – but there’s some of the enigmatic mystique that the early seasons of “Lost” had, which circulates in the veins of “Pluribus.” The first episode – one of the wildest series openings you’ll ever see – ends with Carol being addressed by a White House official through her television. In this new world order, her every move is monitored, while characters like Zosia (Karolina Wydra) – part of this happy collective brain – emerge to serve her smallest wish.
Rhea Seehorn as Carol in ‘Pluribus’. CREDIT: Apple TV.
“I’m interested in a world where everyone gets along and loves each other,” Gilligan says. “And I like to explore the idea of, ‘Would that be as good as it sounds?’ There are many good things about it, but there are other things, like the loss of individuality. Maybe it’s not so good. But there is also the idea that everyone is united. Have you ever gone to a party or walked into a restaurant and felt like everyone knows each other, and that you are the only one who is a stranger? I hate that feeling.”
“I think I was born to be unhappy” – Vince Gilligan.
Diving back into sci-fi – Gilligan was one of the writers behind the paranormal series The X-Files in the 90s – allowed him to draw inspiration from some of his favorites. “I love post-apocalyptic stories. There are many good ones. It’s The Walking Dead. The Last of Us is a great series… And a great game.” He also loves the classic, scary anthology The Twilight Zone, and even took the name “Sturka” from a character played by Fritz Weaver in the episode “Third From The Sun.” “Carol”, by the way, comes from “Carol Burnett”, the beloved comedian who was in Saul.
“Pluribus'” “secret weapon,” according to Gilligan, is the Seehorn, and he is not wrong. The 53-year-old delivers a superb performance as Sturka, a bitter and angry voice who – with good reason – cannot understand this bizarre turn of events. “Carol is a man-hater in the beginning and an absolute lone wolf,” says Seehorn. “I thought it was an interesting thing to think about. You say you’re a lone wolf… but be careful what you wish for.” Let’s put it this way: Kim Wexler is not. “There’s really no comparison,” she adds. “They’re just extraordinarily different characters.”
Gilligan started thinking about “Pluribus” ten years ago, but there is no doubt that with autocrats, war, pandemics and AI, it has become more relevant. “The world has become scarier and feels like it’s more on the verge of something really bad,” he says. With that in mind, he wanted the audience to “ponder” the idea of happiness. “How important is it really? We are all chasing after it. We all want it. But is it so crucial to our daily lives in the end? What would the world be like if everyone was a little kinder to each other?”
So where is Gilligan on the scale between happy and sad? “I think I was born to be unhappy,” he says dryly. “I guess I’m not a particularly happy person. I pretend in interviews and so on, but I’m more like Carol. I have no reason to be unhappy. I’m the happiest person I know, which makes it even harder when I say to myself, ‘Wow, I’m not that happy.’ And then I say to myself, ‘Why on earth aren’t you happy? You’re the happiest person you know.’ And that makes me even more unhappy. It’s a vicious circle.”
Even winning four Emmy Awards for Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul clearly won’t change his mood (Seehorn calls him “one of the best showrunners in television history”). “I also believe that unhappy people make the world go round,” he adds. “If everyone was truly happy and it was back to the caveman era, we’d all be sitting in a puddle staring at the sun. It is the unhappy people who decide that we need clothes, shelter, cars, planes, democracy, art and many other things.”
Still, “Pluribus” isn’t just about exploring our well-being; Gilligan also holds a mirror up to society as it is now. “I live in a country, the United States, that feels very divided. It’s one side and the other side,” he says. “But I really think that no one wants it to be like that, whether you’re red or blue, whether you’re left-wing or right-wing… No one wants it this way. This is not the way for a civilization to grow, flourish and be healthy.”
It may be “grandiose” to say that, he adds, but he hopes people will watch “Pluribus” and dream of a middle ground, somewhere between the world as it is now and the society in the series. “People don’t want to live in Madness. They do not want to live in constant conflict with each other… That’s what I’m hoping for,” he says, before taking a break. “Forget Pluribus. I would gladly flush Pluribus down the toilet if I could suddenly make the world work better. But I can’t. So maybe Pluribus is the best I can do.”
“Pluribus” is on Apple TV from November 7.
